#2 - Supporting ADHD and Neurodivergent Minds: Interview with Elisabeth Gray

In today’s episode of Matters of the Mind, I sit down with Elisabeth Gray, founder and director of Oxford Tutors, to discuss her journey as an educator specializing in ADHD and neurodivergent student support. Elisabeth shares insights she has developed over the years working with diverse students around the world and together, we discuss practical tips and strategies that can help students with ADHD thrive. 

Learn more about Elisabeth Gray and Oxford Tutors here: https://www.oxfordtutorsnyc.com/

Transcript

Pippa: Hello everyone, my name is Pippa Greenberg and you're listening to my podcast Matters of the Mind. Today we have a special guest joining us, Elisabeth Gray. Elisabeth is a lifetime educator who completed her undergraduate education at Oxford University and her master's at Yale. She is the founder and director of Oxford Tutors, an education company that specializes in admission strategies, neurodivergent support, and helping students achieve their potential. In this episode, we'll be discussing Elisabeth's teaching methods, as well as her work with students who have ADHD. She will also be sharing strategies to help neurodivergent students with ADHD. Now, it's my pleasure to introduce Elisabeth Gray. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Elisabeth: Thank you for having me, Pippa. It's a pleasure. 

Pippa: So can you share a little bit about your background and how you started working in education? 

Elisabeth: Sure. So I grew up in a house where education and neurodivergence was sort of in the water. My mother is a behavioral developmental pediatrician, so when I was growing up, I would always steal my mom's manuals and geek out and learn about everything, and I often tutored her patients dealing with things. So when I got to college, I was already pretty certain that it was something that piqued my imagination, so I would spend my summers in Russia at an orphanage for mentally disabled kids and would work with them on basically using drama therapy and neurodivergent learning tools to sort of get them educated, even though the Russian government had decided that there was no point in trying to educate them.

So after college, I moved directly to California where I started creating curriculum for the State of California. And there I created curriculum for two types of students. One was sort of a gifted student who had performed really well, well enough to be tested as gifted in middle school, but by high school was flunking out of school.

And it was a bootcamp program in the summer to reactivate their gifted potential. And the other was, um, Uh, program for kids who were unable to pass the state exit exam. So a lot of students with executive functioning difficulties, a lot of students with ADHD and again, it was sort of bootcamp to work with them in a really focused way, targeted way to get them over the line with their test scores.

And then after that, my private practice sort of emerged from there. So I've been in private practice for almost 19 years and we're based in New York, San Juan, and also Miami DC. London, Switzerland, and Istanbul. 

Pippa: That's really cool. So, was that your inspiration for creating Oxford Tutors? 

Elisabeth: Yeah, my inspiration was, you know, when I was at Oxford, I was transformed by the one on one education that I received there. So as an undergraduate studying English, all of my classes, there, there were no classes. There were just one on one meetings with a tutor who would ask me questions. And as a kid, I was both gifted and had ADHD. And so I had one on one education in the gifted program till sixth grade. And then in high school, I found myself sort of tuned out.

And I wasn't, you know, I wasn't a terrible student, but I certainly didn't live up to my potential. So Oxford changed all of that for me. I, I found at Oxford that in the one on one education and especially in the Socratic method of being asked questions and activated to figure things out, I was placed in a position where I was much more engaged.

And so when I had to come up with a name for my company, Oxford Tutors came to mind just because it seemed like so much of what I was trying to do was to. to replicate the experience I had had at Oxford. 

Pippa: That's amazing. So, what is the Socratic method and how do you implement it when helping students who have ADHD?

Elisabeth: Okay, great question. So, socratic method is basically a process of logical reasoning that uses question based engagement rather than a more didactic, let me tell you how it is Pippa. So, an example of this would be if you're struggling with, let's say, a math problem. A lot of mainstream tutoring is simply going to say, well, you don't know how to do it, so let me tell you how to do it. And there's a lot of explaining. Socratic teaching is basically fundamentally, philosophically, a belief that you have the answer inside of you and that through questioning, I can guide you. to the discovery of the resources that you have inside of you, right? So ultimately, the hope is that if we're engaging Socratically, you're ultimately getting the hang of things and realizing you don't need anybody else for answering the question.

Pippa: That sounds really nice. So how and when did you discover that you wanted to work with neurodivergent students, specifically students with ADHD?

Elisabeth: Yeah, it's a great question. So before arriving here in San Juan, most of my business was in New York City, where there seems to be a lot of focus either on like super high achievers who are taking it the extra mile to maintain their straight A's at really competitive schools, or students who are really struggling and having a hard time and trying to just pass their school.

There wasn't much attention and there isn't much specialized support for students who are smart, but also really struggling with. Executive functioning and struggling with the attention difficulties, which frankly, most gifted people struggle with, even if they get it under control and harness it at some point in their lives, it's really tough to focus so being quite honest, some of it came out of the fact that It's probably what I know best, right? They say that your own brain sort of gives you the easiest access to how to help others. So I, over the years I've had, what, 40 years now of getting to work with my own brain. And so I think it emerged out of basically where my, I feel like my native expertise is anyway.

And then secondarily out of the fact that I think it's a, it's a population that's not really being served. And so alongside Oxford Tutors, we've actually founded a second company called Thought Club. And Thought Club is really specifically focused on executive functioning support. And we're rolling that out now in New York and Chicago both.

Pippa: So is Thought Club and Oxford Tutors, are they similar? 

Elisabeth: Great question. They're sister companies. So Oxford Tutors is a company where we basically, let's call it, think of it as like educational concierge. We're going to walk with you every step of the way. So if we meet you when you're in sixth grade, we're going to say, okay, long term big picture.

What's your dream and how are we going to get there? And that may look like supporting you with your neurodivergence. That may look like supporting you in figuring out what to do with your summers. That may look like, uh, test prep, admission strategy, whatever else. Whereas Thought Club is really focused on hacks and habits for people who have ADHD and learning differences.

Pippa: So what is it like working with students with ADHD and how do you help them develop strategies for success? 

Elisabeth: One of the things we know about ADHD is that ADHD brains simply have higher rates of creativity than everybody else's brain. So I feel like if you're someone who loves surprises, and I do, that ADHD students will always show up with those surprises.

I love that. I also love the mentorship space where the challenges I've faced. actually are helpful to someone else. It can be helpful for a student to hear that someone who's had a really wonderful academic trajectory didn't emerge from the womb, super focused and able to kind of get everything done.

And so I think I really appreciate the chance to share what's been helpful to me, and I also love the problem solving mystery piece to it. Every brain is like its own sort of Rubik's cube. To figure out and the joy of really discovering how each brain works and then seeing the transformation that comes with that. That's probably what motivates me most. 

Pippa: That sounds great. I love your work already. So in all of your years of working with students who have ADHD, what strategies have you found to be the most successful for all of them since you say that all of their brains are different? 

Elisabeth: Yeah, that's a great question, really great question and it's one of the things that we came up against when we were figuring out Thought Club because Thought Club is designed to be a more sustainable, cost effective company that families of any background and means can really access. So we had to really boil down some of the key strategies that I've worked consistently even with students with really different learning profiles.

I'll give you a few of them. The first is contained work time. So let's call it contained office hours. So one of the things that ADHD brains tend to do is if I say, okay, Pippa, you have 30 minutes of work to do, but it has to be done in the next 10 hours, the ADHD person will find a way to take the 30 minute task and split it over 10 hours. So it's very inefficient or unproductive time because you'll sit down at the desk to do it, but then there's 17 other cool things to do. And then you circle back and it's, it's not an efficient thing. So one of the things we work with is office hours. The idea with office hours is let's say on a Sunday, we look at your schedule for the week and we say, okay, you're going to need two and a half hours to get all of your work done Monday, three hours to get it done Tuesday, etc. And let's schedule that time. And you're only permitted to get work done during that time. You're not permitted to touch the work outside of that. So what it's basically doing is helping ADHD brains into a habit of thinking of schoolwork as a job, right?

It's like a part time job. You clock in, you clock out. So that's one of the most effective things that we found for ADHD students. The other thing that we found is, I want to call it productive procrastination. So some of this is learning to say, Hey, my brain is wired the way it's wired. My brain is always going to want to have two things going at the same time.

It's never going to want to do just one thing. It would be great if we could train it overnight to just want to do one thing. But in case we can't, we would like you to have some productive procrastination lined up rather than unproductive procrastination. So, it's one thing to be stuck on your history essay and saying, Ugh, I'm dreading this. It's like pulling teeth. But my procrastination in the background is YouTube. That's quite a different thing than saying, ugh, this history paper, it's miserable. But in the background, what I have going is my Spanish homework that has to be done in three days. So we'd rather you have identify something that it's still going to be a source of procrastination, but it's actually going to be productive for you.

It's not going to take you down the rabbit hole of something that really, really doesn't work at all. The third thing that we found for this learning type in particular is the concept of radical accountability. And by that I mean, it's a learning profile that tends to be, I don't want to say dishonest, but it's not uncommon for a student with ADHD to say, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I submitted that.

Look, you can see it in Google Classroom, it's submitted. And what has been submitted is blank, empty assignment page, right? And like the slowing down of the process, like, Oh, it definitely submitted that. And the teacher's like, no, you didn't. You submitted an empty page. Oops, I did. And then, you know, the back and forth of actually getting the assignment in.

And one of the things that I think we do with our coaches, that's really different than most other EF coaches is this radical accountability piece, which is to say, okay, your brain's wired a certain way, but your actions don't have to be. And if you can get to a place where you feel comfortable being honest about what you're doing with what's going on in your brain.

And if we can hold you accountable in that way, then we have a shot at making sustainable change. 

Pippa: So would you say that you encourage your students to take breaks in the time that they're working? 

Elisabeth: It's a great, it's a, that, that really varies student to student. So one thing I think we're big about is time boxing. So I mentioned like the office hours for students. Some students benefit from what's called the Pomodoro Technique. And in Pomodoro, you have set work blocks that are 20 minutes each, and then you have an eight minute break, you go back and forth. For some students, based on their brains, they really need to just stay in the zone, right?

Stay in the zone and work straight through two and a half hours. For the most part, I would say most brains do best with like a 45 minute on, 15 minute off sort of break, especially if we can get physical activity going in that 15 minute break, for sure. 

Pippa: So I'm guessing that physical activity is very important for someone who has ADHD, getting their energy out is great.

Elisabeth: Correct. And there are two different types of ADHD, as you know, there's Inattentive Type and Hyperactive Type. For the Hyperactive Type, it's absolutely obligatory. I mean, sometimes. Depending on where I am in my own ADHD, I can only really learn if I've got my body in motion, right? If I'm standing up, doing some stretches, keeping my body with me.

So that is something that really depends student to student, but also for students who are dealing with Inattentive ADHD. It can also be a way of, you know, keeping them here in their brains, right? So I think it's really important, you know, in our practice, we have charts that people to fill out to pay attention to sort of the rhythm of their focus, because another way to describe ADHD and probably would be more helpful is ADHD is just dysregulated attention.

Right? So your dysregulated attention may look like hyper focusing for three hours. My dysregulated attention may look like every seven minutes, I'm bored, I want to do something else. So figuring out your own rhythm of your brain and figuring out how your brain sort of ebbs and flows in its focus is a big part of figuring out what sort of time boxing is going to work best for you as a person.

Pippa: That's really cool. So would you say that one person with ADHD can have multiple different types of inattentive dysregulation? 

Elisabeth: 100%. So it may be simultaneously possible that you're in your, your attention dysregulation looks like going down a rabbit hole with something you're really interested in and learning everything about it in the weekend for 48 hours straight.

And it could also look like your inability to sit down and do a very simple assignment that could be done in 15 minutes, or as sometimes happens with me, there's avoidance with dysregulated attention. So with dysregulated attention, you'd be like, la la la. Oh, I'm simply not going to think about XYZ. So you can have multiple multiple directions for your attention dysregulation.

I simply use the term attention dysregulation because I feel now that ADHD has become, I don't want to say stigmatized, but it's so widespread, right? And, and people use the term so loosely. And I don't know how many people even know what it means. So a lot of parents get upset and say, my child doesn't have ADHD.

They can sit still and focus. But what we know, for example, with young women and inattentive ADHD, all it really looks like is zoning out sometimes and not paying attention when someone's talking, right? So if I've got, uh, if I'm a female with an attentive ADHD, it seems to me, you know, ADHD suggests that, you know, we're bouncing off of walls, sometimes that dysregulation is just being a little more checked out than other people are or being a little too checked in. 

Pippa: So would you say that you've noticed a difference between males and females with ADHD or are there different types? 

Elisabeth: Yeah, there's some really wonderful books to read about this, especially because, and I'm not trying to genderize this, but the early studies on ADHD were all performed on male brains.

They weren't performed on female brains. And so these kinds of, you know, when I was growing up, the idea of ADHD was like a boy who can't sit still and just play sports and can't really be, be left to his own devices to focus in the classroom. And, and what we now know is that's simply not the case. And we know more particularly that female ADHD looks so different.

It usually looks like the person who's working 10 times harder than everyone else to show that they can be the best and keep it together. So even by middle school, we see girls with severe ADHD actually often performing really well in the school system, whereas the boys are just floundering. And to that extent, I would say as you age through life, from the earliest stage of ADHD all the way through to being an adult, ADHD looks really, really different in young women, and we're finally starting to talk about that. And we're finally starting to educate young women about what's going on with them, especially because it can be very disconcerting if you say, well, I do care and everything is so much harder for me than my peers.

Really getting to a place where you feel safe. at ease about how your brain works differently, and grateful for how it works differently, and learning the superpowers attached with the way that you work. 

Pippa: Would you say that ADHD is something that can be passed down through parents to the children? 

Elisabeth: Yeah, so this is a really interesting question, and number one, I'm not a researcher. I'm not a neuroscientist. There's a lot of conflicting research, but there's some research that says that we might think of ADHD a little bit more like an epigenetic predisposition, right? So you might have an epigenetic predisposition to it, but depending on how your life goes and what the environment is, it might not be so activated.

There's also another interesting argument or hypothesis, which is a lot of what we're calling quote unquote ADHD isn't actually that. It's an intersectionality, let's say, of some anxiety and some OCD, and that's not the same thing. And so One of the other things I always encourage people to do is if they're sitting with a diagnosis, it's to say, have I been fully tested for, let's say, anxiety disorder, for OCD, for some of these other things that could be going on.

And it can all look on the outside, quite different. But in terms of what's happening inside, they're really different systems operating and the best course of action is quite different from person to person based on what's actually going on inside. 

Pippa: So, is there anything else you would like to add? 

Elisabeth: I really applaud what you're doing. I think that, you know, we're living in a time where one in four young people are being diagnosed ADHD. And that's quite a high rate and one of the things I am on a soapbox about at the moment is thinking about how the ethics of parenting are impacting ADHD rates and what the things that we can do to shift those rates of ADHD down.

So for example, we do know that use of phones and social media contribute significantly to shorten focus and attention span. Is that something we can all do for ourselves to improve our ADHD? Could we turn off WhatsApp? Could we commit to, while we're getting our work done or homework done, putting our phones on airplane mode?

And so I leave that almost as a question for you and your audience, which is to say, if you've ever struggled with attention dysregulation and you don't have to have ADHD to occasionally have disregulated attention, right? We all have days where we're like, oh, I'm in love. I can't think about any of these things.

Or, Oh, I feel miserable. I can't, I can't stay focused. I can't think about things, but I would ask in all of these cases, the technology you're using, who you choose to spend time with, are these things contributing to best use of your brain. And if they're not, what are the habits to change that are going to lean you towards having the use of your brain that you want to have use of?

Pippa: Thank you so much. Thank you. Amazing. I love your work. It's incredible. Thanks. You're helping so many people. 

Elisabeth: Thanks. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.